Now I see why lisa enjoys talking with you phillip, like her you're one of them thar people what do seek to rid the world of bad grammar and atrocious spelling....
Well she's tried and failed with me mon ami, as my fingers type faster than my brain can work....which means little, as after work hours my brain slows down to almost a dead stop, and the errors keep on a coming...
So i'll remain the radical dope, with the not too clever punctuation, and a tendency towards mistyping or even mispelling the occasional word or ten......and as I say to her in situations not too dissimilar to this one when she is leaning over my shoulder, pointing out the error or my ways in an irritated and almost teacher like way....can you spell B-O-L.....

I have a number of friends who are transgendered, and my best friend is also transgendered, so it's something I care deeply about. I've never known what it's like to grow up transgendered, but knowing the people I know and reading work by the TG authors at my site, it has given me an understanding of the issues. Tanya Allan, one of the most gifted authors I've ever had the pleasure of reading, is one of the authors at my site and manages to educate about TG issues in amazing stories, many of which aren't about those issues exactly. It has become a passion for me and sadly while we are making progress educating people about gay rights and gay lifestyles, prejudice towards transgendered and transsexual people is still just as bad as ever.

Oh believe me sweetie, no one was more surprised than me

I'm gay, 100%, no doubt about it. However, I met this incredible woman and fell head over heels in love with her. I never expected to end up with a woman, and was even one of those "women are icky" gays at one point, but one thing we know about being gay - you can't control who you're attracted to or who you fall in love with.

Besides - she and I have the same taste in men

Anyway, this is, in a sense, part of the question. In the past I've been accused of not being a "real man" because I'm gay. What does make a man? A penis? Body chemistry? Being heterosexual? Fathering children? Getting drunk on a Friday night? Using your fists to solve problems? To me it's none of these things. Being male, being a man, is a state of mind. You are what you are on the inside, and if you're lucky the outside will match.

Rob

That's an interesting statement Rob. In that, I think that it could also be applied to any one. I am a straight female who works within a male dominated industry-construction. At times I have had to be "one of the boys" because the majority thought is if you are too female, you're doomed. You'll get walked on, over, generally trampled and kicked about. Having been raised for a long period of time by my father, I have many male tendencies or what are perceived as male tendencies, i.e. aggressiveness, bluntness, etc. Not that I agree that only males can be accused of being this way mind you. But it seems the general population perceives these to be masculine traits. I wouldn't trade any of these traits as they have helped me stand my ground...many times in 6" heels and a skirt. That's a kicker to be sure as it seems to confuse those being aggressive with me.

But it's surprising (in a good way) when I come across men who have also embraced their feminine sides. My belief is that all of us have both male and female traits, some more of one than the other. Some can turn them off and on at will, others will find themselves at odds with themselves, and still others will have to seek and find who they are beneath it all. Those who feel they've been born as the wrong gender.....it must be a terribly confusing and unsettling time in their lives. My wish is that society as whole would make it less hard on these seekers and embrace them for the human beings they are-not what they think the seekers should be because of the skin they currently inhabit. I do not know any trans-gender people. I wish I did as it would help to clear up any misconceptions I may have. But I'm not going to seek out and befriend someone just to pick their brain on it, as to me that seems the height of rudeness. I have been most fortunate in having gay and lesbian friends, who after growing comfortable with me, have enlightened me to a great deal of misconceptions about their lifestyles. Yes, I found out their just like us, except their partner is same sex. Go figure.

I'm a bit tired...ok lots tired, so if I'm off topic or rambled...'tis all ok as no one is bleeding from it. But I wanted to run my mouth...as usual.

It is considerably less about being fortunate, but I will get to that in a mo', 'mo.

Boys and girls, what Mr. Warlock is trying to spell is B-O-L-L-O-C-K-S. Isn't he nice? Let's all have a round of ap-plause. [insert smaller emoticon here]

Look, hon, if it were only for the fact of already appreciating that you could spell "atrocious," then she and I would have precious little to discuss. We already know you're a great guy, which is why I don't have to actually bear your children, so shaddap.

Now then...

Rob, I don't think that those things qualify, in and of themselves. It is not their exclusivity but their mutualism that "makes the man." Without context, we're pretty much nothing, like your "heterosexual accord" with your female partner. You must know by now that more exclusive heteros don't have context for that, and thus you are the enigma you wish to be. So, you identify with a class of beings whose lives are inarguably more complicated than our own. This is not so much casting aspersions as recognizing and affiliating with the tendency.

What have you learned then? How has Mr. Beatie's experience affected you? What would you do, were you him, differently? These are things I'll freely share and would like to hear. Let's stop playing to the Peanut Gallery.

But how you do you know I wasnt about to spell Bolshevik....

Yeah ok, it was bollocks....its a standard response when lisa goes all teacher on me..

What makes a man.... a question I seriously doubt I have the intellect to answer correctly, but i'd offer up that non medically speaking its the ability to know and accept who and what you are, to have tolerance and understanding of those around you, and to have a level of respect for yourself and others.... oh and a penis and tescticles to finish the deal from the medical standpoint.

Which woulld mean its highly possible that sometimes i'm more of a man that at other times, as my level of tolerance works on a sliding basis, as some people really piss me off, and I dont have the ability within me to walk away .....most of the time.

My mother, who I suppose has old school attitudes and is a complete pain in the arse once said on the subject of childbirth "A man is not truly a man until he has fathered a daughter" a statement I found frankly stupid.

I must admit when I was in my youth, I had very little tolerance for things I didnt understand, and when a friend of mine had a gay lodger it made me very uncomfortable.
Reason being, even though he was a really nice guy and I got along with him well, it was brought to my attention one day that he fancied me, ((something I wouldnt notice even if it was a female unless I was beaten over the head with it, as i'm dense in that area)) and it really changed my perspective. To be honest for some reason, at the time it REALLY made me feel, as I said, uncomfortable, and probably even threatened in some way, as he had often mentioned that we should go to the gym together etc. Then one day I was at the gym, and in the shower, and this guy....who I must say had the biggest penis I have ever seen (lucky bastard) came walking into the showers naked..... I got out of there so fast my feet shouldve caught fire.

The thing is, I came into contact with a fair few gay men at the time, and it became a bit of a standing joke within the group i knocked about with, when I got "chatted up" and as a young lad with the mental capacity of a stick, I started to wonder if I was putting out a "Gay Vibe"

As stupid and bigotted as it was, as I got older I soon realised it made very little difference to me what a persons sexuality is, as long as I was secure in my own, and following that had a gay friend who used to have me in stitches as he was always trying to turn me to "the dark side" as he put it, and gloriously announced things such as "You've never had a proper blowjob until you've had one from a man".

But then attitudes change as you get older I guess, i've become more tolerant and understanding with some things in life, and way less tolerant and understanding with others, I find Gay, lesbian relationships the norm, yet cannot understand why a high percentage of young girls seem to want to experiment in this area, then go onto have a "normal" heterosexual relationship with a man.

I was once asked "what would you do if your son came home and told you he was gay", I said i'd probably laugh, reassure him not to worry as it makes no difference to me what his sexuality is, then introduce him to the very next person we met as "This is my son, the Poof" just to see his face

Thank GOD. I just got a flash of the image of you pregnant. Suffice to say I'll have nightmares for a week.

Still I have to agree. The right people got the job. Men couldn't handle the gestation, let alone the birth.

Which leads me to repeat something I may already have said somewhere here. Something that irritiates me is phrases like "he's getting in touch with his feminine side".

In my view, men have no feminine side. Women have no masculine side. The so-called "feminine" and "masculine" traits are mere behaviours, they don't know anything about gender. People have simply pigeonholed them into simplistic gender-based areas, often culture-based, which is not where they belong.

Men can be caring and nurturing, and women can be aggressive. There's no copyrights. Pick up the tool that does the job! Ripley didn't scream and burst into tears when the Aliens appeared, and I'd hit her (so to speak)!

Picking one behaviour or another doesn't make anyone more or less of a man/woman, just more (or possibly less, if you like) of a person. Gender is another overworked social seperator.

So spare me the PC sensitive new age philosophies! (inserts grumpy bastard smiley)

Re "What if your son said he was gay?" - A bit like Warlock, I personally liked the Jack Nicholson approach. "Carol the waitress, meet Simon the fag." I don't draw on the movie line lightly. The point was, Nicholson's character didn't indulge in PC bullshit. When he said something we knew he meant it, thus his compliments really meant something. His handling of "Simon", in the end, surely left Simon convinced that the old grouch was sincere and could be trusted with his friendship.

I've known plenty of gays. Some basket cases, some shining examples of humanity, in other words, no different in the important things. I've dealt with quite a number of what we call "sexual reassignment" cases in my work, which is the final, legal end of a process that begins with someone deciding they are in the wrong body, and going through serious counselling and support before and after surgery, then getting a court declaration of their new status for legal purposes.

I have been constantly impressed at how superbly well the "reassignment" people have adapted to what I think would be a difficult choice. Seems to me that if you're going to do it, plan it, and use every available support resource.

This story is a load of crap. He/she just wants attention. If I have to hear about a "pregnant man" giving birth one more time, i will shoot myself in the face. he/she was and is still a woman, SHE has a vagina, ovaries, and uterus. NO PENIS and just because you cut off your breasts and take testosterone does not make you a man. GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY.

*makes note... do not mention male pregnancy again.. EVER*

Welcome to IaBT LOL

More. Effective than an intro thread, LOL.