Sorry, but I love uncouth women - girls who can match my blag with they're own blag, can shout louder than me, can drink more Kestrel Super than me and aren't afraid to piss themselves laughing at my sexual performance.

As for hitting women, well, it's not right for a man to strike a woman - even if she has hit him first. Dunno why, it just isn't.

Funny enough Benny what you describe doesn't bother me. I can drink hard, I can (and do) laugh at sex and I can bullshit with the best. I'll give as good as I get, I can be loud... but at the same time there are some things that just aren't necessary too

It isn't right for any person to strike another for any reason, and I would have a serious problem with anyone who claimed otherwise. However, there are times when we have to forget about what is right and consider what is necessary.

In defense of my wife, the children I hope to have one day or to protect myself, I will not hesitate to strike anyone who poses a danger, regardless of their age or gender. I will also use physical force to stop someone who is hurting me or someone I love, even if the pain they are causing is not serious or life-threatening - again, regardless of their gender. If someone uses violence against me or someone I care about, they should expect a violent response in return. That response may be mitigated by that person's size or gender, and I do believe in using the minimum necessary force to resolve a situation, but I will not stand by and allow myself or someone I love to be hurt just because the person hurting them has a vagina.

I also believe that if a woman (or anyone else) becomes hysterical, sometimes a short, sharp slap around the face is necessary to snap them out of it. I have never slapped a hysterical woman, but I did once slap a man who became hysterical. It was an effective way of getting his attention, calming him down and resolving the problem.

Nobody should claim that it is ever right to hit or slap or use any other form of physical force against another human being (with the possible exception of bedroom antics between couples, but I won't go there). I'm fairly sure that those parents here who do smack their children will say that they don't believe they are right to do so, but that sometimes it's necessary - I disagree, but provided they don't claim they are right to smack their children, I will never argue with their right to raise their offspring however they please.

However, there is a difference between what is right and what is necessary. Sometimes violence is necessary. Sometimes it is even necessary to kill. It should be avoided at all costs. Those who do resort to physical violence should never be proud of it or think that their actions are right, but anyone who says that they would never hit a woman under any circumstances is almost certainly lying, because for most people if someone they love is in danger there is nothing they won't do to protect them.

To stress, what I am saying regarding physical violence is that the idea of hitting men and hitting women should be considered equally abhorrent. There should not be this idea that it's ok for a woman to hit a man, but it's not ok for him to hit back. It is not ok for anyone to hit anyone else. The idea that women are weak, timid creatures who need special protection from physical violence, while a man should just take it if a woman hits him, is what I find repugnant.

Rob

I can't really find anything to disagree with there....dammit, I hate reasonable people.

Oh I love this post. I agree with every thing you said Helena, particularly the part about a women hitting a man.

This thread seems to be a survivor, so I guess I'm not gravedigging!
Way back, Helen's OP put the question about modern female behaviour. Annakey added a nice ingredient with; I don't think there's much dispute about equal performance bringing equal reward, or about everyone having entitlement to similar rights.

Some good input from Rob and Helena in April summed it all up for me. I soon lost any sympathy for the "radfems" who didn't like certain patronising language applied by men to women, but didn't see the inconsistency of being "matronising" of men. And so many wanted to have their cake and eat it too. That's certainly not general but it undermined a heap of credibility. The good thing is of course that it made many of us question "political correctness" and led to my favourite measure of "equity" and "discrimination" - reverse the roles and see if it's still acceptible.

I also don't think gender is an issue when it comes to violence (hey, what about those schoolgirls in the YouTube vids bashing their fellow students?). I had a friend who had some colourful belt in karate, whose wife of the time - something of a fruit-bat - used to physically attack him. He was brought up not to hit women, and disciplined within his martial arts training. I think also the poor guy was blinded by some vestige of affection. As a consequence he would up in hospital regularly. He's only one such example I've encountered.

With kids, I never hit in anger. If I see a slap on the backside coming I take a mental step back and decide the merits, and use minimal force. I scared myself once with our first kid, as I delivered a smack I realised I was overdoing it and swore it wouldn't happen again, and it hasn't.

I also have crude rules of engagement. There must be a demonstration from someone else that they think violence is appropriate. If that's the way they want to play, fine. But it should never be a normal way of dealing with issues, just a last resort, and in cold blood, with a clear purpose, not in anger.

Back on track - and my same old philosophy. Maybe belching, farting, scratching and cussing are seen as cool. Well, sorry, but it's not, it's more steamy and festering and smelly. The little harridans who carry on like pork chops at bus stations and in malls are play-acting, they have never seen bonding in serious situations.

Sex is personal. Cussing is something I like to have available when I hammer my thumb. If bonding includes loud body functions so be it, but pick your audience and not your anatomy!

Seems to me there are problems sorting "assertiveness" from "ignorance and arrogance", and as Annakey said, "politeness" from "good manners". My "same old philosophy" is that society has turned legalistic. We have rules instead of manners. PC gives us dot-points to follow, whilst manners gives us tools to apply to any situation, new or old. Well-wielded manners is win-win and a halfway decent person will respond in kind. Halfway-decent is my cutoff line for giving good manners back. That has nothing to do with gender.

Which leads finally to my own conclusion regarding the socially scruffy females (and males) we see too often. They will get back from me the same levels of respect that they demonstrate.

Yep. It's a matter of manners and being aware of other people, as well as showing a certain amount of self-respect, regardless of gender.

Otherwise, we're back to the traditional stereotyped gender roles that the feminists, of whom I am one, were attempting to overcome: "Men are pigs who are only after one thing (as my dear mother used to say ), while women are saints." Those gender expectations were confining for everyone, at the same time as they served as damned good excuses for evading personal responsibility. "Boys will be boys", for example. Let's face it, none of us is all saint or all devil; we're human.

Me personally ... I'd prefer not to look at anyone's underwear sticking out of the top of their jeans, whether they're male or female . Why in hell would anyone think that's stylish and cool? It's just sloppy and gross. [/rant]

"Set a new course. There's coffee in that nebula." -- Capt. Janeway, Star Trek: Voyager

Hooray! Let me present you with a Black Duck Feather! I have always said gender expectations imprisoned the known genders but never heard it applied to other than one! I thought it was just one of my own weird ideas.

You have something against plumbers, I take it? Oh, hang on, do they wear undies?

Most days I hate being part of the younger generation. I must confess I do swear to, but never in front of children or the elderly either. I can not stand it when I see a women with no tact. I must admit sometimes I walk away from my sister in law in public because of she will belch or fart in public. She says its because she hangs out with the guys. She can say that all she wants my friends have always been made up of 90% mail, & I've always been considered one of the guys but I still no how to act like a lady. As for the dressing thing, I just don't get it. Girls put it out there all on display & then they don't get it when they get unwanted attention. They are proud of it to. I was out shopping just last week & one of my friends had the nerve to tell me I dressed like a old lady. Well I have one thing to say to that, I'm proud that I cover myself & I would much rather be called a old lady than a hoe. She can have her body shop & wet seal, I will stick to my NY&Comapany, & Ann Taylor. Just felt the need to rant a bit only being 22 & ashamed of my generation from time to time.

Well, here's one of my own weird ideas. I think that once we get past our traditional gender expectations, we'll be re-visiting the entire concept of gender. You said "the known genders" ... what if gender was not limited to male-female?

It may make your mind go "tilt" to read that, but there are people who are already thinking about it. We've got the world around us mentally constructed in a certain way, but that doesn't mean it's the only way. (Edited to add: I'm not necessarily referring to your mind there, John, but anyone reading this .)

The last plumber to visit my house (when the toilet stopped up a few months ago) was wearing "Haz-Mat" booties on his feet , so it appears they're getting to be more professional in their attire. I didn't ask to see his undies, however. He was a nice-looking guy, too. Oh well.


I don't mean to be "young people-bashing" here, but you raise some good questions. I recall back in the 1970s, we women wanted to be treated the same as men, and we might have gotten a bit confused as to what that meant. We wanted so much to get beyond the traditional gender stereotypes that were holding us down. As a result, I think we ended up putting ourselves down as women, and thus in some respects didn't set the best example for the generations of women who would follow us.

"Set a new course. There's coffee in that nebula." -- Capt. Janeway, Star Trek: Voyager