Hey John,

A point came up that I want to address. You mentioned how Americans posted threads on that other forum about "how proud they were of their troops marching into other countries to correct their failings." I haven't been to those forums, nor have I read those threads, so I don't know the context they were written in, but I want to try and explain something that our "other country" friends might not be aware of.

Back in the 60s and 70s we dealt with the Vietnam war fiasco and millions of Americans were killed. While that war was going on there were protests here at home against the war. Those protests got pretty over-zealous and nasty, and people started to blame the soldiers for something that they had nothing to do with. The soldiers didn't start the war, and could not end it... they were mearly tools, but the returning soldiers were ridiculed and treated very badly... even denied jobs and benefits. When people finally realized what they had been doing, a call went out... NEVER AGAIN. To this day that call is still remembered. So lots of Americans will brag about how proud they are of our troops that are in harms way. It is because we don't want to ever forget how shitty we were to the Vietnam veterans. We will never again blame our troops for doing their job. In fact, we will instead thank endlessly them for risking their lives so I can sit here and type this on my computer, in relative safety.

Now maybe these people on that forum were being assholes about their patriotism, or... maybe they were showing unwaivering support for our troops that are getting killed, maimed and psychologically fucked up while following orders from some asshole that's in office.

I write this simply because things might have been taken in the wrong understanding. We will support our troops always, without necessarily supporting the reason they are fighting.

As for being "colonized" by Chevy, Coke, McDonalds, and I love Lucy, no-one said you HAD to buy it, right? If you refused to buy it, they would leave. It's all about the money. We're being colonized by Toyota, Honda, Sony and China... So are you, but I don't hear any mention of them... only America. If you (rhetorical) resent America for our industry... you must also resent China and Japan for theirs, right? Do you also resent Apple and Microsoft for the computers we're typing on? Would you prefer that our tourism dollars be spent somewhere else? Do you drive a Lada? Is it a selective resentment?

And you said that America entered WWII to protect our own interests... Do you find something wrong with that, or would it have been better that we didn't enter the war in Europe at all? Is there a country that entered the war for any other reason than for their own interests?

Hangman... that's just hypocracy. If every Scot I talk to is an asshole, it won't take long before I believe all Scots are assholes. The size of the country doesn't matter. Why are so many showing "interest" in North Korea? They're a little country in the grand scheme of things. Is it because they could royally fuck things up for no apparent reason?

The very same happened here. Returning troops who had been through hell because the politicians sent them to a war that many didn't believe was our business were called baby-killers.

My issue is not the support of troops. I fully understand supporting soldiers who are lumbered with following politician's demands, if it was otherwise we'd live in banana republics. My gripe is people who, without even waiting for a context, simply bob up with a long outburst of how great America is. It isn't something people in most other countries do, not through lack of pride, but as far as I can see some kind of tact. I wouldn't object if they put it in perspective, but often the same people comment in other contexts in ways that show they clearly think the US has done it all and other countries have done nothing.

I agree - I think I actually said some people accept the wave of imports. Part of the problem is the vendors exploiting the opening, part of it is people accepting it without thought.

Part of the problem also is that in this country, the government has historically done a lot of talking but not much supporting of local innovations.

I am like my father. I support local industry first, if there's a local product. And that is often in the face of market saturation by corporations which can initially afford to cut prices to drive out small competitors, after which, quality doesn't matter.

Of course. But the point is America did enter for its own reasons - altruism would have had America defending democracy in 1941, jumping off from Britain, stopping Germany dead and making Japan think twice! As I said, our interests fortunately coincided. But it would be wrong to say, in the context of a debate such as the present one, that "America saved the world" as if it was a selfless act.

I think the sequel to that is America had the wealth, resources and industrial might to win by weight of materiel. The industrial machine came out stronger as a world force which had benefits for the US, whilst the rest of the world, nearer the front line, was drained by the war.

What I'm trying to say is that the world looks to America for everything, economy, defence, ideals et.al. I'm not only talking about size which can be measured.



I can't argue with, "if every Scot I talk to is an asshole, it won't take long before I believe all Scots are assholes." It's true, and it goes for every nationality.

Oh, and North Korea has nuclear weapons which it has been shooting at people, not to mention the human rights atrocities committed by King Jong Il.

I think I have nearly said all I should on this thread and should wind up. The thread is about the negative image the US has somehow acquired, and I'd like to move on and, somewhere, say something nice when it's in context.

Re "Scots" - I have general views on a few nationalities. Part of me has been subjected to PC socialisation which says "don't draw profiles based on ethnicity or nationality". Part of me had to learn at uni level how to conduct valid surveys and properly interpret statistics. If I can take a particular national group and find that of fifty I have randomly encountered, forty behave in a certain way, I think it is fair to anticipate the odds of how the next fifty will behave. Which is crap, the statistical and mathematical processes we happily rely on to predict sales and lay off workers, or PC?

Not that I mill make assumptions about individuals, but I feel entitled to say "Elbonians are mostly a cheerful lot" of forty of the fifty I've met are happy characters.

However, this doesn't apply to a nation like the USA with a diverse population. It's probably about time to repeat - from my own viewpoint and that of most of my social group, the big gripes are about the US in the political and economic sense. That is, the country who has so much influence that greedy bank executives can retire rich, their banks collapse, their country's economy slumps - and people in my country lose a big slab of their retirement investment, their jobs, their homes. The country that invokes alliances and sends Australian soldiers to die (because our leaders are bootlickers to America, granted) regardless of what the citizens think. (What they think became clear - John Howard, a.k.a. "Bonsai" - Little Bush - was voted out).

I think my social circle is pretty much average with signs of intelligence. Some are so rabidly anti-US that I am the poor fool who sticks up for the US against them, then comes here and appears to hate it!)

The "ugly American" hatred of loud tourists in tasteless shirts is still there, but it's a little bit antique. The concerns are now bigger and relate to the political and industrial entity. The nasty bit of the US is the one we were warned about as a past US president - Dwight Eisenhower - neared the end of his presidency, when he warned his own country about what he called the military-industrial complex. We could possibly now call it a military-industrial-financial complex. On other threads it has reared it's head when we touched on who backed Bush and who lately backed Palin.

I know some folks here who blame the US citizens for not voting "right" or not voting at all, but we can't do that. Telling people what democracy should look like is exactly what most US-bashers don't like about the US! We can dislike things but we cannot tell the US people what electoral system they should run, or how they should vote. The US should of course not be doing that to other countries.

I've had the good luck to meet in person and online many American people and that is a different ball game. Like anywhere else, if I don't like one of them I vote with my feet. The others I choose to associate with, and I wouldn't do that if they were not good people - and good enough for me to go past what I think of George Bush or American corporations. I have some very good friends all over the US and from different backgrounds. Between us individually, what the country does is beside the point. It only really matters when I see families here suffer because when the US sneezes, we catch colds.

Personally, I think the US needs to start taking care of their people at home. And stop giving hand outs to other countries by way of money, etc. While we can be brash, overbearing, etc. I don't see this stopping those who are in need of coming and asking for our help. If I remember correctly, we didn't actually enter into WWII until after the Japanese had bombed us at Pearl Harbor. So yes, if that was for our own reasons, I'd say that was a very important reason. And didn't we ultimately show them- we bombed them, they bounced back only to now sell us a multitude of imported products.

You cannot fault us for loving our country, just as we could not fault any of you. Most Americans know we are not the best, but damn do we try. As seemingly, other countries do as well. And yet, it appears we are easy targets to take shots at. I personally am tired of hearing about American politics and supposed bashing. Surely there are other interesting things out there to be discussed.

Im with you all the way on that one, and I think this should be the same of england......... why should we be helping people in bloody africa when we have enough poverty in this country thats not being dealt with???

I get cheesed off with immigrants coming to this country for what we are prepared to give them and then sitting here slagging it off, and im betting its no different in the US, and as you say it never stops these people asking for help and hand outs.....

On the other thread india goes to the moon, if it wasnt for foreign industry plaing a massive part in industrialising india, they'd be nowhere now....but the trouble is, through moving industry to places like india, the british economy is starting to suffer as so many people are out of work due to their jobs now being done for half the price by some person in india......which means by default these companies will lose sales in the UK as nobody will be able to afford to buy anything, and this is already happening.#
Tesco has now moved their budget range to the forefront of the shops and their advertising campaign, as they need to keep their customers, telecoms is suffering as people are less likely to order new phone lines and are switching to cheaper packages or suppliers............. so by helping other countries, we start to suffer ourselves....BT and Openreach have moved loads of systems out to india....yet their business is suffering to the point they now have to cut 10,000 jobs ........ question is, if they have kept the jobs available in the uk, would their business be suffering???


I reckon we should move the UK to the coast of america and become the 53rd state and say fuck you to the rest of the world!!

*Claps* Welcome England! LOL

Nice summary and conclusion I think.