Rather than be the last poster yet again on Hangman's Atheist Quotes thread I'll add some local news by way of support.

Seems that one of our churches has a fraudulent pastor. Well, maybe more, but this one hit the news, for example here.

To hit the high points, for two years he has claimed to have terminal cancer. He stood before congregations with oxygen tubes in his nose and tears running down his face and displayed his great faith despite the trials God bestowed upon him. Everyone raised their hands and hallelujah'd, cried with joy and parted with money.

He recorded a song about his faith, a veritable beacon to the Lord in Time of Trial, and more money came in.

His family - his parents, his wife - lived with the belief they were going to lose him. His father was planning the funeral.

Now he turns up on TV, crying again, to say that it was all a lie. And, get this, it was something he did to distract himself from an obsession with "adult pornography" (words carefully used by his father).

The word "forgiveness" is now being tossed around. Two things; he deliberately promulgated the fraud, nothing will change that. And certainly give him room to prove that "from now on" he will tell the truth, but never forget that fraud is inside as well as outside the church door and this guy has now got a history which you ignore at peril. Forgiveness is a non-issue, a Christian role-play to make the naive feel better about themselves.

He revealed all after a dream featuring a cross and a voice telling him the truth would set him free. But gosh, golly, who would believe that a con would be perpetrated in the name of God and people would accept it?

End of this morning's cynical spit...

Random thoughts ...

I hope the guy can now get help for his obvious psychological problems.

Yesterday, I was feeling cynical about the world. Today I'm just feeling sad.

It's very sad ... that he did this to himself, that it's so public, that people bought into his act and are now acting so self-righteous about it, and sad that the lessons taught by the Judaeo-Christian worldview are so focussed on creating shame, guilt and self-hatred.

"Forgiveness" has not much to do with the person being forgiven or what they did. It's mostly for the one doing the forgiving.

The fact that they have a link to a poll on that news site, asking people to vote whether he "should now be forgiven" .... whatever happened to "judge not, lest you be judged"? (I think that's in the New Testament, said by ... er, Jesus.)

"Set a new course. There's coffee in that nebula." -- Capt. Janeway, Star Trek: Voyager

We agree about forgiveness. It's neither here not there for me, it's more important to either not do the deed in the first place, or having done it, for the penitent offender to ensure they don't do it again and the victims to learn to mix caution with trust.

Guilt - I think he was probably magnifying his passing interest in what sounds like conventional (no leather, furry animals or manacles) porn, and if we for a moment swallow that committing fraud is therapy for his guilt trip, then perhaps yes, the imposition of guilt may have been behind it. A strange process in his case.

I am not particularly saddened. He had an audience so used to swallowing camels they weren't going to strain at a gnat (more words from Kristni Warlock). Carrying a big target saying "I am gullible, con me" is inviting the inevitable con. And in that context a congregation is a target-rich environment, as Steve Martin so ably demonstrated on screen.

Cynical is my operating system. Not to say I wouldn't give the guy an open door to prove his intentions to straighten things out, but I have seen enough chronic liars and con-men "relent" and "find Jesus", and swear from today on, all they say is the truth, to be vigilant. The only great truth of psychology I can recall is that the best guide to someone's future behaviour is their past behaviour.

The tragedy is what he has put those closest to him through. Those who sincerely cared about him, supported him and were coming to terms with losing him have been slapped in the face. To that extent, if he is being publically humiliated, then he is reaping as he has sown (I should get a tent and start my own travelling salvation show).

Any sadness is in the form of a twinge for the lost innocence of the trusting, but that is soon turned into a comforting thought that the experience may stop some people from checking in their brains at the church door.

Then I get depressed knowing that the Christian response is "this is a test of our faith, we must not abandon our trust in members of our church Family".

Forgiveness - a topic until itself! (another one!!)

Anyway, being the cynical type myself when I first read the post I shook my head, unsurprised that a so-called religious person would do something like that. The thought that followed that was what a crap world we live in that when someone religious does something outlandish I'm not surprised by it.

The "adult pornography" comment got my attention the most tho. Was he stressing the adult part to stop being labelled a paedophile? Only, that wouldn't have crossed my mind if he'd just said pornography. Seems an odd emphasis to me.

I am that a man of God has yet again been found out to be a con artist preying on the flock otherwise known as witless sheep. NOT! I am all for people believing as they will, what they will. But in this day of Pat Roberts, Jim whatever his name was, and men of their ilk, I am astounded that there are still some gullible sheep out there.

I guess my neighbor, the preacher put it best when he told my son that this is biggest and best con to run; i.e. preying on peoples fears and their willingness to believe anything. His God felt he needed a Jag, which he hides in the garage. There is certainly a crime that has been committed by both of these bozos.

The problem with the "test of our faith" rubbish is that it somehow makes something that is wrong, right. It's a very clever saying and it's designed so God can never be seen as bad, or questioned.

In my opinion, if I was one of his followers (as in this pastor) I would be rather sceptical that if he'd lied about this, what else has he lied about over the years?

Good comments. And some of the answers lie in your own Atheist Quotes post!

Only in today's news here we see something to the point.

Not an odd emphasis to me. Among my past wives (well, there were two, this second one made the first look good) I was once married to a self-professed born-again genuwine authentic fundamentalist god-botherer. Being a tolerant type (as you all will have picked up) I attended church with her fairly often and went to "flock" gatherings. Occasionaly wearing a red shirt and black leather, but I tried.

She was also a teacher, as often at government schools as church schools. If she had a good quality, she took teaching seriously and applied herself to it. During that time the government passed laws that carers such as teachers had to mandatorily report indications of child abuse.

One of the more fundamental church schools had a policy of, in their own words, building walls between themselves, the holy, and the satanic general community. I can recall telling one church minister that if I was looking for devils, I'd start in a church.

On the policy being announced, they sent a circular around the school community. My memory of it is quite clear because I was appalled. It declared that despite the government's new laws, instances of child abuse would not be reported to authorities, but to church elders. They would then counsel the father (they assumed paternal involvement) from the perspective that ultimately, God set fathers up as heads of households and nobody had the right to question them.

A colleague of mine from the same area was at the time also married to a member of an even more fundamentalist group. When they divorced, she of course got the kids because the assumption was mothers were always better parents. This caring parent believed nothing she did would matter because it was all in god's hands. I remember the daughter aged 9 or 10 loved horses, and I did her a drawing of one which last I saw, when she was in her 20s, she still treasured. As a teenager, this daughter fell in with a 55-year-old church elder who spun her a story and had a jolly good little sexual arrangement going with her. The girl never recovered from that and other dynamics within the community and her dad (indeed, anyone) has now not seen her for years.

Those are just two substantial indicators I saw in that particular region which had a fairly lively assortment of churches. Added to those were a host of little things with disturbing implications.

I can see quite clearly why the father saw fit to clarify what kind of porn his son was into.

Putting it in that light, yes I can now understand it. But we don't really have such extremes over here in the UK that often, so I'm sure you can understand why it flagged up for me

Tell me, how did the church minister react when you told him about looking in churches first for devils? (Something I agree with completely, btw!)

Well, during my ten years living in that region of the outer suburbs, which only seemed like thirty, I think I was patient with god, but s/he just blew every opportunity. It was a valuable experience. With all the advantages, god still failed to convince. Anyway, I did encounter a couple of reasonably decent church leaders whom I at least respected (including one who was remarkably similar to Mr. Bean), and a several more about whom I thought, "This guy is an obnoxious twit, WTH, I'll tell him point-blank". So it was possible to be charmingly frank with either of those types.

One of the latter saw fit to intervene in what would have normally been a domestic issue - long story short, wife 2's general modus operandi was that I should dump my kids in favour of full attention to her and hers, and he had an Opinion from God on the matter. Wife 2 was quite good at playing church games to get support in that way and tossed in hints that the devil was probably involved if she wasn't getting her own way.

So the local god-botherer gaulieter made some statement to that effect and my response was, as I said, if I was looking for devils I would start in a church. By that stage I think I had seen enough to substantiate my position. The flock counsellor in him was strong enough for him to grunt acknowledgement without digressing into a flame war. Which in a religious context, I hear, can be quite literal.