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But, of course, fundamentalist beliefs harm no one...........

That's disgusting.

Apparantly the mother 'is just as much the victim as the boy'. Bullshit. I know for a fact that unless a mother was "in on it" or seriously mentally ill (then again, she is religious...) that she wouldn't have gone along with what the cult was saying she should do - surely the police would have been called or she'd have gone to her family would, according to what they've said in this story, have helped her. Maybe she was too stubborn. A quote from the said grandmother was, "she didn't willingly decide, 'I'm going to kill my son.' ... It's not like that. Somebody made that decision to not feed that child, and my daughter had to follow instructions." She obviously willingly made no contact with the police or the family who were obviously very concerned, unless that is she'd been brainwashed. She joined the damned group anyway.

I'm very surprised at the fact the mother was arrested in a homeless shelter though, surely joining a cult would mean that they'd "look after their flock" at the very least. The grandmother had also had her access cut off by the cult members, and according to another report, it was the cult leader who starved the kid - but why was she looking after him?

This isn't the last of it though, these groups are on a par with the Jehova's witnesses who refuse treatments. The group this mother was in was a faith healing groups and from just a quick look around it appears there have been a few deaths of kids simply because parents avoid traditional medicine and believe that "God will heal them". One case was an 11 month boy who died from pneumonia - that could have easily been sorted out with antibiotics.

Another case:

"Dale and Leilani Neuman watched as their 11-year-old girl, Madeline, died, praying the entire time. A relative in California had notified local authorities in Wisconsin of the death of a family member in Weston. Madeline was in a coma and was rushed to a nearby hospital, where she subsequently died of untreated diabetic ketoacidosis, an illness authorities insist could have been treated."

The authorities obviously couldn't care less as in the above case, the parents (who were charged with second degree reckless homocide) will probably get off scott free because, "Wisconsin, like 40 other states, has an explicit exemption law that guarantees parents freedom from prosecution of child abuse of neglect if faith healing is employed in lieu of medical assistance."

So there you have it, states which are willing to turn a blind eye to people who are preventing the real, and natural healing of a child simply because they all believe in God. Terrible, horrible, stupid, and unforgivable.

We're supposed to live in a modern and humanity concious world, people keep saying how terrible people are for doing these things, but what I think is even more terrible is the fact that there is a legal system which accepts and obviously encourages one of the most wicked forms of child abuse known to man.

Civilised... do me a favour.

*Speechless*

The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

Yeah, that's why I didn't say much other than posting the article.

It's not that I couldn't or don't have a lot to say, but where the hell does one start? I can't for the life of me fathom this or any of these others things that I'm reading that is being done to children. I look at my 2 grown up beasties and remember just loving them so much when they were tiny and growling should someone get too close to my babies. Actually I still growl should I feel someone is out to hurt them and they are ginormous grown up men now who tower over me. Gods! Just shocking to me that people will do this to their own children.

The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

Ah, yes, that good old excuse, "It's not my fault. They 'made' me do it. I'm just a helpless victim."


I see a difference between this case and faith healing. The issue of faith healing is complex, and there are different ethical and legal considerations involved. I'm not saying I support adults letting their kids die through withholding medicine, but not all people who use faith healing would go to that extreme.

So for those who would, maybe it does come down to the same thing as in this case: they're nuts.

"Set a new course. There's coffee in that nebula." -- Capt. Janeway, Star Trek: Voyager

My own closest contact with the extreme ends of religion .... no, even the bits under the middle of the Gaussian curve .... convince me its attraction is absolution from responsibility.

It is God's will. You will get your rewards in heaven. It's a test of your faith. I don't like violence but if god wills that I kill those who don't believe...

I take perverse delight in referring to the Bible on this forum. I recall Abraham was directed to sacrifice his son to god. Now I question god's people-manangment principles, but in this case god, at the last minute, told Abraham to stop, he didn't really want the sacrifice, he had proven his faith.

And, ho-hum, I validate it by adding "Deut. 13:31". One may ask that if god knows our hearts, it was necessary to go through the exercise at all, but my point is that by the measure of the religious, actually killing a child is not a demonstration of faith. If we were to pursue the debate we would probably find ourselves showing - just using religious references - that god would in fact condemn the act.

For heathens like me, it's enough that the people responsible for this barbarity are beneath human contempt.

John, I think I love you I often take perverse delight in bringing up Abraham being told to sacrifice his son.. and Cain and Abel where God's happy with the bloodythirsty offering but not the flowers and pretty things.

God obviously got a new PR man for the New Testament as he was more of a hippy that time around!

But that's a whole thread unto itself LOL

Gee, I am sort of experiencing butterflies too! It's a hard choice though, there's someting sort of attractive about Helena's way with words too ("Better to have loved and lost than marry a psycho" strikes chords).

One tract I can always remember is Isiah 36:12 which, in more traditional versions of the Bible (not the plain modern English ones) seems to describe an Aussie barbecue. Something about "They shall sit on the wall and drink their own piss..." The Bible has something to say about everything.

So tempting to carry on with the thread hijack. But if there's any kind of justice it would be great to see those who hurt kids in the name of god stand up there one day to be told, "I have a special eternal deal for you dirtbags who hurt kids and said it was what I wanted!"

The really sad thing is that if people like me are right, when we die nobody will be in a position to gloat that we were right.

I think so long as these people who abuse kids aren't in a position to say they were right, I really don't mind what happens or if there even is some kind of afterlife.